The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Really damning stuff about adding the `so called'
> good oils to the diet
>
>
> Even more damning of adding fats to the diet and
> the dubious olive oil is the 5 minute presentation
> by the highly regarded Dr Caldwell Esselstyn.
> Basically he said it contributes to heart disease
> and some cancers over the long term. NOW...many of
> the studies showing olive oil is beneficial were
> only done over the short term, however recent
> studies presented by Dr Esselstyn indicate show
> that adding oils is very dangerous. And yes, l did
> look up the studies and it appears that adding
> oils to the diet are as bad as animal fats over
> the long term. And if you think a raw food diet is
> going to help, this doesn't appear to be the case
> at all because they studied Green Monkeys (they
> eat raw btw) and added oil to their diet and the
> results were not promising. They also studies
> humans and they didn't fare so well when they
> added olive oil to the diet either. Various
> studies have now been done and they are all
> indicating the same long term problems.
>
>
> No Oil -- Not Even Olive Oil!
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> The studies are referenced in Dr Esselstyn's
> article. The studies are quite tricky, but when
> you study them carefully you see that this man is
> correct.
> [www.heartattackproof.com]
>
>
>
>
> We also have Dr Brian Clement mentioning that
> adding oils look to be contributing to prostrate
> cancer and lowering oxygen levels in the body
> also. Dr Esselstyn is now working with Dr Clement.
>
>
> The question l always ask myself is...why would
> you extract oil from a food and then add it in
> food again??? That doesn't make sense on so many
> levels. Why would you alter nature's synergy by
> adding in an oil with concentrated nutrients?
>
> And yes, the heart research center seems to be
> recommending a diet that contributes to CVD.
>
> "NO OIL!!!"

No mention of what oils were tested in the study or whether they were cooked or not. Can't take it seriously.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not try to read books proving or disproving
> the effects of oil in the diet. It just does not
> make sense. And I think the sproutarian man
> summarized it correctly.
>
> "The question l always ask myself is...why would
> you extract oil from a food and then add it in
> food again??? That doesn't make sense on so many
> levels. Why would you alter nature's synergy by
> adding in an oil with concentrated nutrients? "

It's working for me but I'm on a diet that was worked out by someone who includes lots of things that compensate for other things in it - foods and herbs which function as blood thinners, for one thing.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> regarding fructose....
>
> What if I said, protease inhibitors, tannins, and
> phytates have bad effects on the body, therefore
> don't eat a lot of sprouts !



That's a fair point. The solution = digestive enzymes and probiotics to break these things down. U.T may help too, it increases good bacterial levels according to Dr Jubb (makes sense).

Interestingly enough, jtprindl provided a study which showed that phytate may not be as bad as originally thought over the long term. New research indicates that the body adjusts to phytate over the long term when calcium is involved. Still, only early days yet, and still we have the protease inhibitors etc to remove.






Great, l will check the b12 site.



>
> There are drawbacks, yes.
> will you be submitting your true nutrient levels?

I suppose l will have to. Need to save up to get the tests done again.


I'll get back to the rest of the posts tommorrow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 02:21AM by The Sproutarian Man.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RawPracticalist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do not try to read books proving or
> disproving
> > the effects of oil in the diet. It just does
> not
> > make sense. And I think the sproutarian man
> > summarized it correctly.
> >
> > "The question l always ask myself is...why
> would
> > you extract oil from a food and then add it in
> > food again??? That doesn't make sense on so
> many
> > levels. Why would you alter nature's synergy by
> > adding in an oil with concentrated nutrients? "
>
> It's working for me but I'm on a diet that was
> worked out by someone who includes lots of things
> that compensate for other things in it - foods and
> herbs which function as blood thinners, for one
> thing.

Testing over a period of years will tell if this method works for you. It will be interesting to see how effective these various herb/food formulations work in reducing/blocking the negative effects of a high oil diet. I shall keep an eye on ole Tavis.

If anyone finds a brand of sprouted nut butter that either doesn't taste bad or isn't tasteless please let me know. I have never found one.

I soak all but the white nuts but do not sprout them because it takes all the good taste out of them. Same with seeds. That's not right, IMO, I think nuts and seeds should taste good.

Before I went raw I sprouted all my legumes and guess what? Sprouting sucked all the taste out of them, too.

So no thanks to sprouting seeds and nuts for me.

I'm not going to drink pee, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 02:40AM by SueZ.

Are you looking for taste or nutrients?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 02:43AM by RawPracticalist.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I seriously doubt these studies tested stone
> ground living olive oils so to me, without knowing
> that, and with the link being broken, I can't take
> this study seriously.

In this thread, [www.rawfoodsupport.com] I already tried to explain the flaw of your argument, but I'll say it again

Special_pleading

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Special pleading (also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment[1]) is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations.

I'm not relying on faith in small probabilities here. These are slot machines, not roulette wheels. They are different.

No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing", rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I seriously doubt these studies tested stone
> > ground living olive oils so to me, without
> knowing
> > that, and with the link being broken, I can't
> take
> > this study seriously.

> "Special pleading (also known as stacking the
> deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and
> one-sided assessment[1]) is a form of spurious
> argument where a position in a dispute introduces
> favourable details or excludes unfavourable
> details by alleging a need to apply additional
> considerations without proper criticism of these
> considerations.
>
> I'm not relying on faith in small probabilities
> here. These are slot machines, not roulette
> wheels. They are different.
>
> No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc
> attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When
> faced with a counterexample to a universal claim
> ("no Scotsman would do such a thing", rather than
> denying the counterexample or rejecting the
> original universal claim, this fallacy modifies
> the subject of the assertion to exclude the
> specific case or others like it by rhetoric,
> without reference to any specific objective rule


Just ridiculous.

looks like you are itching but here is a working link to the study (easy to google)

[content.onlinejacc.org]

The COCLUSIONS are at the end of page 2 (if you get lost). Whether the olive oil is stone ground or not is IRRELEVANT (sorry to bust the bubble)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 02:58AM by Panchito.

..."Whether the olive oil is stone ground or not is IRRELEVANT" ...

Very clear.

this was interesting from the study....

Whether the 17% saturated fat content of olive oil impairs this action is unknown. In a clinical study, olive oil was shown to activate coagulation factor VII to the same extent as does butter (44). Thus, olive oil does not have a clearly beneficial effect on vascular function.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Testing over a period of years will tell if this
> method works for you.

Well if the tests tell me it's not working in one year that will be it for me. I learned several lessons from the hclf diet. I will not be staying on any diet for over a year that doesn't show improved results in my yearly lab work is one of them. Another one is not to recommend a diet I'm on even though I feel good on it unless the lab works is good, too. I just say it's working for me so far. I can't recommend it to others who might not be really cleaned out before attempting it. It's not a walk in the park. It is extremely delicious and satiating, which is nice.

It will be interesting to
> see how effective these various herb/food
> formulations work in reducing/blocking the
> negative effects of a high oil diet.

I have yet to see any studies that convinces me that high oil is bad. I take all these dietary studies with a big grain of salt because they are only as good as the people who are doing them and most of them seem to miss things or have an agenda which always skews the results.

I shall keep
> an eye on ole Tavis.

I have no idea where he is. Apparently he wasn't ready for prime time.

One thing I remember though that 'dan the man' said in regards to Tavis' health and athletic ability. He said Tavis was the strongest bike rider he had ever known and that he could could ride up big hills unfazed that left Dan breathless. And he said that long before the big falling out in rawdom.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> looks like you are itching but here is a
> working link to the study (easy to google)
>
> [content.onlinejacc.org]
> rceID=2867848&PDFSource=13
>
> The COCLUSIONS are at the end of page 2 (if you
> get lost). Whether the olive oil is stone ground
> or not is IRRELEVANT (sorry to bust the bubble)

I'm tired of reading your studies but I will if you, who have read it, will tell me this - did they use organic stone ground raw living oil and if they did
what brand did they use? If I'm happy that they didn't use some cheap cooked @#$%& I will read the study.

I have no problem with getting my bubbles busted it happens everyday for people who are really living experimentally. You have never come close to that yet, Panchito, so I'm getting bored.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Well if the tests tell me it's not working in
> one year that will be it for me. I learned several
> lessons from the hclf diet. I will not be staying
> on any diet for over a year that doesn't show
> improved results in my yearly lab work is one of
> them. Another one is not to recommend a diet I'm
> on even though I feel good on it unless the lab
> works is good, too.


You don't know how happy it makes me to read that. Like a breath of fresh air.


>
>
> I have yet to see any studies that convinces me
> that high oil is bad. I take all these dietary
> studies with a big grain of salt because they are
> only as good as the people who are doing them and
> most of them seem to miss things or have an agenda
> which always skews the results.


Fair point. l am continuing my search and will need to look things up in libraries. The science can be iffy at times so we need to read the full studies and stay alert to look out for any weaknesses. I feel Dr Esselstyn is on the right track because the long term added oil consumption IS showing poor results in patients/raw eating animals, but more questions need to be asked about the studies before l can be 100% sure of the full picture. That's why l use terms like "it is not looking good" or "it looks like".

Something tells me this adding oil thing is not right, but we shall see what your results are and how Tavis fares. I am always open to changing my mind, but that being said, l will not wrote the idea completely off until l see how you and others following the diet do. Never good to keep a completely closed mind.



>
> I have no idea where he is. Apparently he
> wasn't ready for prime time.

Another raw food superstar leader? Is Tavis going to be the new star on the block?

>
> One thing I remember though that 'dan the man'
> said in regards to Tavis' health and athletic
> ability. He said Tavis was the strongest bike
> rider he had ever known and that he could could
> ride up big hills unfazed that left Dan
> breathless. And he said that long before the big
> falling out in rawdom.

Very interesting.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 03:34AM by The Sproutarian Man.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..."Whether the olive oil is stone ground or not
> is IRRELEVANT" ...
>
> Very clear.

Clear only because it's typed in upper case letters. If the olive oil is not stone ground it's already cooked you know. If it's not organically grown and processed knowledgably and carefully it's simply an inadequate study to be taken seriously on a raw food website, IMO.

Very smart SueZ
But
what is the use of olive oil even if it is stone ground?
The idea that nutrient X is bad in the diet but may be counter balanced by good nutrient Y does not make sense. why do you need X in the first place.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this was interesting from the study....
>
> Whether the 17% saturated fat content of olive oil
> impairs this action is unknown. In a clinical
> study, olive oil was shown to activate coagulation
> factor VII to the same extent as does butter (44).
> Thus, olive oil does not have a clearly beneficial
> effect on vascular function.

Yes, it certainly is not looking good for the added oils. Will this Tavis diet work or will the oil end up consuming him and spitting him out like so many vegan diets do to people, time will tell. But generally the studies seem pretty damning for adding oil, and we just can't ignore it. I think the days of adding oils to salads need to be over for so many reasons.

Cooked food diets need to be steamed or baked. Never boiled and certainly not cooked in oils/fats. People are in a tough position according to the good doctor, they consume dairy/meat and then cook much of their food in oils/fats. And if you eat processed foods you also get further problems. If people only knew.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > this was interesting from the study....
> >
> > Whether the 17% saturated fat content of olive
> oil
> > impairs this action is unknown. In a clinical
> > study, olive oil was shown to activate
> coagulation
> > factor VII to the same extent as does butter
> (44).
> > Thus, olive oil does not have a clearly
> beneficial
> > effect on vascular function.
>
> Yes, it certainly is not looking good for the
> added oils. Will this Tavis diet work or will the
> oil end up consuming him and spitting him out like
> so many vegan diets do to people, time will tell.
> But generally the studies seem pretty damning for
> adding oil, and we just can't ignore it. I think
> the days of adding oils to salads need to be over
> for so many reasons.
>
> Cooked food diets need to be steamed or baked.
> Never boiled and certainly not cooked in
> oils/fats. People are in a tough position
> according to the good doctor, they consume
> dairy/meat and then cook much of their food in
> oils/fats. And if you eat processed foods you also
> get further problems. If people only knew.


Why baked over boiling?

In spite of all the cooking with oils many are alive and doing well.
The body is really resilient.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > fresh Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > this was interesting from the study....
> > >
> > > Whether the 17% saturated fat content of
> olive
> > oil
> > > impairs this action is unknown. In a clinical
> > > study, olive oil was shown to activate
> > coagulation
> > > factor VII to the same extent as does butter
> > (44).
> > > Thus, olive oil does not have a clearly
> > beneficial
> > > effect on vascular function.
> >
> > Yes, it certainly is not looking good for the
> > added oils. Will this Tavis diet work or will
> the
> > oil end up consuming him and spitting him out
> like
> > so many vegan diets do to people, time will
> tell.
> > But generally the studies seem pretty damning
> for
> > adding oil, and we just can't ignore it. I
> think
> > the days of adding oils to salads need to be
> over
> > for so many reasons.
> >
> > Cooked food diets need to be steamed or baked.
> > Never boiled and certainly not cooked in
> > oils/fats. People are in a tough position
> > according to the good doctor, they consume
> > dairy/meat and then cook much of their food in
> > oils/fats. And if you eat processed foods you
> also
> > get further problems. If people only knew.
>
>
> Why baked over boiling?

I have a book of studies on how cooking effects nutrient losses and boiling is one of the worst methods because it leaches minerals etc into the cooking water.

Personally I think Tavis' diet, in the way he does it,is a ketosis diet. That he seems not to think so is a frustration for me because what he says are the proportions of nutrients in his diet do not match up to what I come to when I put in his numbers into chronometer. Not even close.


I don't know why but with so many raw food people there is, IMO, such an underlying dismissal of the science of measuring that most seem to almost find it painful, if not impossible, to even use measuring spoons or cups when recipes are given. So many of them have been working on recipe books, too, for years, that never get written. Usually no lab work to show how they are doing, either.

P.S. Storm, Tavis uses coconut oil on his skin that's why it's shiny. Nothing wrong with that. Also Tavis said he has been on the Conductivity Diet for 10 years and gets stronger and feels better as he continues it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 04:58AM by SueZ.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a book of studies on how cooking effects
> nutrient losses and boiling is one of the worst
> methods because it leaches minerals etc into the
> cooking water.

Before I went raw I would pressure cook and pressure can my legumes with seaweed in the water. I would use the seaweed broth water I'd cooked the beans in as a miso soup. No minerals lost that way except a bit of evaporated iodine which I got to inhale.

I think that God wants us to be creative as humans and not mimic creatures lower on the evolutionary unfolding than we are in how and what we should eat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 05:12AM by SueZ.

I don't eat oils, except for a rare meal at a raw restaurant where I didn't catch that there was oil in the dish I ordered. For me, they don't feel good. I prefer to get my fats from whole foods, including avocados, sesame seeds, hemp seeds, and chia seeds. If I use a high omega 6 fat, I will also include some ground chia in the mix.

Those people eating 2 tablespoons of olive oil, you might want to consider a whole food alternative.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't eat oils, except for a rare meal at a raw
> restaurant where I didn't catch that there was oil
> in the dish I ordered. For me, they don't feel
> good. I prefer to get my fats from whole foods,
> including avocados, sesame seeds, hemp seeds, and
> chia seeds. If I use a high omega 6 fat, I will
> also include some ground chia in the mix.
>
> Those people eating 2 tablespoons of olive oil,
> you might want to consider a whole food
> alternative.

Ha ha ha. I eat plenty of whole foods. I pour walnut oil all over my avocados and coconut oil all over my ground flax seeds. Etc.

People who can only get down 2 T of oil in a whole day are wusses.

Well SueZ, I'm glad you're enjoying your oils. They seem to be working well for you.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Prana Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't eat oils, except for a rare meal at a
> raw
> > restaurant where I didn't catch that there was
> oil
> > in the dish I ordered. For me, they don't feel
> > good. I prefer to get my fats from whole foods,
> > including avocados, sesame seeds, hemp seeds,
> and
> > chia seeds. If I use a high omega 6 fat, I will
> > also include some ground chia in the mix.
> >
> > Those people eating 2 tablespoons of olive oil,
> > you might want to consider a whole food
> > alternative.
>
> Ha ha ha. I eat plenty of whole foods. I pour
> walnut oil all over my avocados and coconut oil
> all over my ground flax seeds. Etc.
>
> People who can only get down 2 T of oil in a
> whole day are wusses.

Why so much oil?

Bryan, do you eat nuts/seed butters in your daily diet? If so, approximately how much? Also, what about coconut butter or coconut oil?


Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't eat oils, except for a rare meal at a raw
> restaurant where I didn't catch that there was oil
> in the dish I ordered. For me, they don't feel
> good. I prefer to get my fats from whole foods,
> including avocados, sesame seeds, hemp seeds, and
> chia seeds. If I use a high omega 6 fat, I will
> also include some ground chia in the mix.
>
> Those people eating 2 tablespoons of olive oil,
> you might want to consider a whole food
> alternative.

Did anybody noticed how the two independent studies reached the same coclusion about oxidative stress (AGE) from the oilive oil? The endothilial study showed that the damage from olive oil to the blood vessels and lymphatic vessels was from a type of oxidative stress. The AGE food measurement study showed that olive oil had a huge amount of AGE. Put the two together and Voila!

this is what the stress caused by olive oil damages according with the study: [en.wikipedia.org]

"Anthony Robbins hit it on the head when he talked about cooked foods altering the electrical current in the body. Even the best of olive oils (I don't recommend them at all and neither did Dr. Wigmore) do not conduct electricity. If they don't conduct electricity, then they will not regenerate cells and one's nervous system is 'disconnected' from the vital energies." -Dr. Flora

The Sproutarian Man wrote:

<<<The most important factor in health

And let’s not forget, the most important factor in health is our `attitude', more important than diet according to clinical observation by Dr. Clement done over a 40 year period with well over 100,000 people.

No matter how good the diet consumed, if one is bitter, mean spirited, abusive towards others and vicious...then it doesn't matter how good the diet is. In Dr. Clement's vast experience, these mean spirited people never properly heal regardless of how good their diet is and how much they exercise. Being happy and having a good attitude towards others is crucial. The mean folk may think they are hurting others in the game of one-upmanship, but they know not what they do because they are hurting themselves more than they realise. Brian's observations make sense because it is common sense.

If we have a calm mind, act mature (no one-upmanship) be nice and be happy, we are going to be in better health and heal much better when a good diet is consumed.

…

Once again, attitude is the most important factor because we will have health problems and won't heal near as well if our attitude is poor.

Be well, be nice, eat well and exercise well. It all counts.>>>

Hey TSM,

Very well said and it reminds me of something Dr. Hazel Parcells once said about Karma, "...what you will for another is done to you, since we all share life and therefore are one. To be healthy, think good thoughts." By the way, Dr. Hazel Parcells lived to be 106 and said that we should design all of our eating around natural foods--foods that are "in season," fresh and alive.

This also reminds me of something Dr. Flora once said about Negative Thoughts, "Einstein said never to memorize anything. He said to clear your mind and attach it to the positive ring of energy/intelligence around the world and you will be empowered. This is why there are so many examples of independent and similar ideas being born all over the world at the same time! He also said that if people knew the power of one negative thought, they would never even think anything but loving things."

Peace and Love..........John